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In what promises to be a very controversial court ruling, the California State Appellate Court has issued a ruling that says that parents that wish to home school their children must have teaching credentials.
The appellate court ruling stems from a case involving Lynwood parents Phillip and Mary Long, who were repeatedly referred to the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services over various allegations, including claims of physical abuse, involving some of their eight children.
All of the Long children were enrolled in Sunland Christian School, where they would occasionally take tests, but were educated in their home by their mother
Background of this, via the Appellate ruling, shows that a Welfare and Institutions Code section 300 petition was filed on behalf of three minor children after the eldest of them reported physical and emotional mistreatment by the children’s father.
The Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services investigated the situation and discovered, among other things, that all eight of the children in the family had been home schooled by the mother rather than educated in a public or private school.
The attorney representing the younger two children asked the juvenile court to order that the children be enrolled in a public or private school.
The dependency court refused to make such an order despite the court’s opinion that the home schooling the children were receiving was “lousy,” “meager,” and “bad,” and despite the court’s opinion that keeping the children at home deprived them of situations where (1) they could interact with people outside the family, (2) there are people who could provide help if something is amiss in the children’s lives, and (3) they could develop emotionally in a broader world than the parents’ “cloistered” setting.
The original trial court's decision stated that the parents had a constitutional right to home school their children, so the attorney for the children went to the 2nd District Court of Appeal, which has jurisdiction over Los Angeles, Ventura, Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo counties, and asked for "extraordinary writ relief", on the grounds that the original trial court's decision was an "was an abuse of discretion."
The Appellate court did not see it as an abuse of discretion but rather an "error of law" on the part of the original trial court.
In their ruling, (18 page PDF file), the Appellate court states:
The trial court’s reason for declining to order public or private schooling for the children was its belief that parents have a constitutional right to school their children in their own home. However, California courts have held that under provisions in the
Education Code, parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children. Thus, while the petition for extraordinary writ asserts that the trial court’s refusal to order attendance in a public or private school was an abuse of discretion, we find the refusal was actually an error of law. It is clear to us that enrollment and attendance in a public full-time day school is required by California law for minor children unless (1) the child is enrolled in a private full-time day school and actually attends that private school, (2) the child is tutored by a person holding a valid state teaching credential for the grade being taught, or (3) one of the other few statutory exemptions to compulsory public school attendance (Ed. Code, § 48220 et seq.) applies to the child. Because the parents in this case have not demonstrated that any of these exemptions apply to their children, we will grant the petition for extraordinary writ.
In this ruling, the court said that because Mary Long does not have a teaching credential, the family is violating state laws.
This is already causing some very serious controversy from groups opposed to this latest ruling by the Appellate Court.
According to the figures from Pacific Justice Institute, which represents the Sunland Christian School, which specializes in religious home schooling, approximately 166,000 California students are home schooled.
Brad Dacus, president of the Pacific Justice Institute, states, "This decision is a direct hit against every home schooler in California. If the state Supreme Court does not reverse this . . . there will be nothing to prevent home-school witch hunts from being implemented in every corner of the state of California."
Advocates for the families of those home schooled children vow to take this to the Supreme Court to overturn this decision by the Appellate Court.
Under the California State Education Code, this issue is not specifically addressed but does say that students must be enrolled in a public or private school, or can be taught at home by a credentialed tutor.
The California Department of Education currently allows home schooling as long as parents file paperwork with the state establishing themselves as small private schools, hire credentialed tutors or enroll their children in independent study programs run by charter or private schools or public school districts while still teaching at home.
According to the California Department of Education FAQS, it reads:
12. Other than traditional public school classrooms, what choices are available for my child's education?
California law explicitly recognizes four choices available to parents who wish to seek an educational setting other than a traditional public school classroom for their child:
1. A tutor who holds a current California teaching credential for the grade level being taught (EC 48224). The tutor must provide instruction:
* In the English language
* In all the branches of study required in the public schools
* For at least 175 days per calendar year
* For at least three hours a day between 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m.
Because the tutor must provide instruction in all branches of study required in the public schools, the Multiple Subject Teaching Credential satisfies the credential requirement at all grade levels. The Single Subject Teaching Credential is not sufficient at any grade level. The Multiple Subject Teaching Credential is valid for kindergarten through grade twelve in self-contained classrooms, whereas the Single Subject Credential authorizes teaching a special subject only, such as math or English. Further credential information is available from the California Commission for Teacher Credentialing (Outside Source) Web site.
The credentialed tutor may be the parent or any person employed by the parent. A tutor is not required to file the Private School Affidavit.
The Los Angeles Times article, linked above, states that California does little to enforce those provisions.
The president of United Teachers Los Angeles, A.J. Duffy, agrees with the Appellate Court ruling, "What's best for a child is to be taught by a credentialed teacher," he said.
Philip Long, the man that the eldest child accused of physical and emotional mistreatment, which started this whole case, claims that this ruling stems from hostility against Christians and has also vowed to take this to the Supreme Court.
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Interesting. Now who was saying to me that there were other options for people who want to educate thier children? It seems to me California isn't happy that some children aren't forced to go to public brainwashing school. Now on the other hand, if you are going to homeschool your children you need to make sure that you are teaching them well and involving them in social activities. It is one of those society vs. personal freedom things here in America we are battling. Is it better to allow society to tell us how to raise our children? Or should we raise our children to fit in well with society and still have personal freedom?
I personally see the education system as lousy in my state, and I cannot afford to stay home with my children to teach them, or send them to a private school.
Just a bad situation.
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@ Samantha A. Torrence
Interesting. Now who was saying to me that there were other options for people who want to educate thier children? It seems to me California isn't happy that some children aren't forced to go to public brainwashing school. Now on the other hand, if you are going to homeschool your children you need to make sure that you are teaching them well and involving them in social activities. It is one of those society vs. personal freedom things here in America we are battling. Is it better to allow society to tell us how to raise our children? Or should we raise our children to fit in well with society and still have personal freedom?
I personally see the education system as lousy in my state, and I cannot afford to stay home with my children to teach them, or send them to a private school.
Just a bad situation.
Good points and I do believe if parents are going to take on the role of teachers, they need to be qualified to teach, otherwise we end up with uneducated children going out unprepared into the workforce later in life.
With that said, I see nothing wrong with home schooling, but I have met adults that cannot even spell or add properly.
I think the perfect solution would be to offer FREE credentialing.. make sure the parents have the ability to teach, then credential them for free. -
Free credentialing, that would be great except teachers would get very upset that they paid so much to get thier credentials. I am sure they could make a system that would work though.
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@ Samantha A. Torrence
Free credentialing, that would be great except teachers would get very upset that they paid so much to get thier credentials. I am sure they could make a system that would work though.
I home-schooled my boys. My eldest graduated and is now a songwriter. My younger son is in public school. He has learning disabilities and according to at least two educators had he not gotten the love of learning and the specialized one on one I provided he may have been buried in the cracks when he was younger. Although I have college under my belt it wasn't in education but I did study on different learning styles as I taught them. -
@ KJ (momentsintime)
I home-schooled my boys. My eldest graduated and is now a songwriter. My younger son is in public school. He has learning disabilities and according to at least two educators had he not gotten the love of learning and the specialized one on one I provided he may have been buried in the cracks when he was younger. Although I have college under my belt it wasn't in education but I did study on different learning styles as I taught them.
That is so nice to know you were able to do that for your son. My children do not seem to enjoy my method of teaching them. Sadly I don't think I have the proper patience for this sort of thing, although I really really wish I did. I am hoping to be able to afford private schooling for them. -
@ Samantha A. Torrence
That is so nice to know you were able to do that for your son. My children do not seem to enjoy my method of teaching them. Sadly I don't think I have the proper patience for this sort of thing, although I really really wish I did. I am hoping to be able to afford private schooling for them.
What method do you use? I followed John Holt's child led learning methods because it applied to the boys but there are as many schools of thought as there are children. :) -
I haven't really tried any particular method but my own. I am having a hard time getting them interested for longer than 5 minutes. They have a great attention span for everything but me I guess. I'll look into the John Holt method. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. You may just help me be a better mother! =)
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@ Sue D.
Good points and I do believe if parents are going to take on the role of teachers, they need to be qualified to teach, otherwise we end up with uneducated children going out unprepared into the workforce later in life.
With that said, I see nothing wrong with home schooling, but I have met adults that cannot even spell or add properly.
I think the perfect solution would be to offer FREE credentialing.. make sure the parents have the ability to teach, then credential them for free.
That would work, but the teachers unions would balk at the idea and shoot it down before it ever left the hanger to taxi down the runway.
This is just one of the many reasons some of us call that state out there on the Pacific Coast Kalifornia. -
@ Samantha A. Torrence
I haven't really tried any particular method but my own. I am having a hard time getting them interested for longer than 5 minutes. They have a great attention span for everything but me I guess. I'll look into the John Holt method. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. You may just help me be a better mother! =)
Here's the best tip that I have offered others in the same sitch, use unit studies on whatever they love at the moment, be it Barbie dolls or bugs. You can find lots of educational sources for almost anything that kids are into if you don't mind being creative.
Also remember that simply playing at times is a great learning experience for young ones. By stacking boxes my youngest figured out multiplication at the age of seven. It was a game so it was fun. :) -
This credentialed teaching nonsense is just more useless government bureaucracy. Any idiot can go get credentialed, leaving them to teach their child whatever they want, regardless of what their 'credential' says they know how to do. Its just like all the other bureaucracy they shove down our throats. Having a credential is no guarantee they'll teach their child anything. I'm so tired of the government interfering in everything.
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@ atroxodisse
This credentialed teaching nonsense is just more useless government bureaucracy. Any idiot can go get credentialed, leaving them to teach their child whatever they want, regardless of what their 'credential' says they know how to do. Its just like all the other bureaucracy they shove down our throats. Having a credential is no guarantee they'll teach their child anything. I'm so tired of the government interfering in everything.
I have interviews adults that could not spell and could not add, so i think that if they want to teach their children they should at least have to show they themselves are capable of teaching.. then the yearly testing will show if they were or were not.
People tend to forget that this originally came up because the eldest accused his father of abuse and their was a history of this family NOT doing the job.
Do we want our children, those that will follow us to take over the country to be idiots with no education?
Yes the government sticks its nose where it doesn't belong, but on the flip side, some parents are qualified to teach school curriculum.
So, a basic test to show whether the parent themselves, if they want to teach their kids, can even multiply 10 times 2, is not too much to ask.
The Department of Education has rules but like many other laws they do not enforce them.
If there is a law, it should be enforced. -
having credentials isn't bad in the case of public teachers though. I did a piece a while back on problem teachers, many who have had credentials revoked and refusals for reinstatement for one reason or another. A credential just means that the DO know how to do it and can be held liable for not teaching thier child properly.
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@ Sue D.
I have interviews adults that could not spell and could not add, so i think that if they want to teach their children they should at least have to show they themselves are capable of teaching.. then the yearly testing will show if they were or were not.
People tend to forget that this originally came up because the eldest accused his father of abuse and their was a history of this family NOT doing the job.
Do we want our children, those that will follow us to take over the country to be idiots with no education?
Yes the government sticks its nose where it doesn't belong, but on the flip side, some parents are qualified to teach school curriculum.
So, a basic test to show whether the parent themselves, if they want to teach their kids, can even multiply 10 times 2, is not too much to ask.
The Department of Education has rules but like many other laws they do not enforce them.
If there is a law, it should be enforced.
I hear what you're saying but I really don't think we have any business telling someone how to teach their kids and how they should be educated. I do WANT everyone to be smart and teach their children but I don't feel we have a right to force them. I wish this case hadn't gone this way because really the problem seems to be an abusive parent. I can see where the state would step in and force certain people to go into public education if their parent is failing them but to require everyone to get a credential is unfair to all the people who aren't complete fuckups. Every time someone screws something up they just create a stupid law to keep control of the idiots who then end up falling through the cracks anyway. -
@ atroxodisse
I hear what you're saying but I really don't think we have any business telling someone how to teach their kids and how they should be educated. I do WANT everyone to be smart and teach their children but I don't feel we have a right to force them. I wish this case hadn't gone this way because really the problem seems to be an abusive parent. I can see where the state would step in and force certain people to go into public education if their parent is failing them but to require everyone to get a credential is unfair to all the people who aren't complete fuckups. Every time someone screws something up they just create a stupid law to keep control of the idiots who then end up falling through the cracks anyway.
Then flip that...why on earth do teachers have to be credentialed along that line of thinking?
Why not just say, kids don't HAVE to be educated?
If one believes that kids must be educated, then how can they be educated by someone incapable of doing so?
@ Samantha A. Torrence
having credentials isn't bad in the case of public teachers though. I did a piece a while back on problem teachers, many who have had credentials revoked and refusals for reinstatement for one reason or another. A credential just means that the DO know how to do it and can be held liable for not teaching thier child properly.
Exactly Samantha, all it does is apply the same standard to parents that teach as teachers that teach.
Teachers that have their credentialing pulled are no longer allowed to teach and can no longer claim to be a teacher... why should parents be able to bypass the simple basics of passing a few tests so that IF the children aren't being taught, they are accountable?
There is a line for me....that is curriculum, to me as long as the basics are covered, reading, writing, math and basic language skills, then that is enough but once again, the parents have to be capable of reading, writing, basic math and language skills or they cannot teach it.
It really is very simple. -
@ Sue D.
Exactly Samantha, all it does is apply the same standard to parents that teach as teachers that teach.
Teachers that have their credentialing pulled are no longer allowed to teach and can no longer claim to be a teacher... why should parents be able to bypass the simple basics of passing a few tests so that IF the children aren't being taught, they are accountable?
There is a line for me....that is curriculum, to me as long as the basics are covered, reading, writing, math and basic language skills, then that is enough but once again, the parents have to be capable of reading, writing, basic math and language skills or they cannot teach it.
It really is very simple.
I think you have placed too much faith in government. The parent should be the one to chose whether their child is getting the necessary learning unless they prove to be incapable. Your assumption is that if one is not credentialed that one is incapable of teaching. Not true. A credential is simply a road block. I don't have any credentials but I'm 100% positive I could do a better job with my kids than a lot of my kid's teachers have done. Bureaucracy gets in the way and only serves to slow down people who are intelligent. Do I need a credential to be a parent? Do I need a credential to walk down the street? Teachers need to be credentialed because that is their profession and they are expected to perform to a certain level of competence as designated by the state. I need an education to work in my field. No one would hire me otherwise. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter how good I am at my job if I don't have an education unless I have a well known reputation. Bureaucracy leads to good people being slowed down and bad people working around the laws. Further, having a credentialed teacher is no guarantee that your child will get a good education. Kids fail classes all the time and drop out of school. -
@ atroxodisse
I think you have placed too much faith in government. The parent should be the one to chose whether their child is getting the necessary learning unless they prove to be incapable. Your assumption is that if one is not credentialed that one is incapable of teaching. Not true. A credential is simply a road block. I don't have any credentials but I'm 100% positive I could do a better job with my kids than a lot of my kid's teachers have done. Bureaucracy gets in the way and only serves to slow down people who are intelligent. Do I need a credential to be a parent? Do I need a credential to walk down the street? Teachers need to be credentialed because that is their profession and they are expected to perform to a certain level of competence as designated by the state. I need an education to work in my field. No one would hire me otherwise. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter how good I am at my job if I don't have an education unless I have a well known reputation. Bureaucracy leads to good people being slowed down and bad people working around the laws. Further, having a credentialed teacher is no guarantee that your child will get a good education. Kids fail classes all the time and drop out of school.
I agree. I also don't believe that a cookie cutter curriculum is always the best route for all children. What about kids who are interested in more than what is set for a certain year or by the same token need more time to "get" the basics. Not all children are able to read by 6 but most can by 10 and at grade level.
I do think that yearly evaluations are fundamental for making sure a children is learning. Testing has so many faults that I have viewed first hand. But keeping a portfolio and having a child education expert interview a child allows for a well rounded basis on how a kid is honestly progressing. -
Teachers need to be credentialed because that is their profession and they are expected to perform to a certain level of competence as designated by the state.
EXACTLY. If parents want to do THAT job, they should have some level of education and show they are capable. As I have said, I have interviewed grown men and women that could not write, spell or add, therefore, if THEY chose to teach their children, guess what?
Their children would be just as idiotic.
Nothing wrong with teaching your own children and nothing wrong with taking a simple test showing your are capable of doing so either.
Bottom line, the law as stated by the judge, says they have to be taught by someone credentialed, so parents NOT credentialed are breaking the law.
Change the law or abide by it. -
Uhhhhhum {stepping up on my soap box}
First, I'd like to stay, there are many parents out there who can provide a MUCH BETTER education than our public education system provides.
I have homeschooled my children for a few years and it wasn't easy. Some parents purchase online programs that suffice for the homeschool curriculum - that WORKS for their family. The kids LEARN. That is what its all about.
Some piece mill their curriculums (that is what I did) using the best from many different curriculum's and online programs - AKA ecclectic. It works for many homeschoolers.
Some use religious based - their choice but works for them and tends to be some of the most rigid curriculums for the core studies.
Some by DVD or tv type. Some use group type.
Others adopt the arts, environment, and other types of real life adaptations to the core subjects so their children can survive college life.
The homeschool student isn't sitting at home watching TV or playing a video game. Quite the contrary. They are doing a lot of hands on learning.
When I taught TX history, we drove to the historical monuments and FELT the war, the battles, the deaths. When I taught native amerian history, we visited a pow wow and danced and ate and indulged. My children LEARNED.
So WHO THE HELL is california to say that a credentialed tutor is the only one who can teach in a homeschooling environment? Many people pull their children out for reasons such as bullying and violence! Columbine? Hello!
Its why I pulled my sons. Until I could undo the public SOCIAL crap and help them unlearn what public schools teach.
Now, they are socially adept and can see the crap that is allowed. I will sit in a meeting with a teacher tomorrow who tried to bully on the phone. They are more balanced.
And ANYONE who tries to quote "social" reasons for not homeschooling has no clue. Homeschooled children always have the right amount of sleep, eat well, study / play balance, no homework issues....etc. Don't have to worry about prayer in schools or any of the crap that goes on. IF social means that homeschool kids won't be gangsta' punks or drug addicts or bully kids, then I'd prefer a homeschooled child any day.
Homeschooled children are well adjusted graduate and go to college just like other kids. They are not freaks or earth people who end up barefoot running in fields.
California - HOW DARE YOU put that law into play. You uber conflicted state! No wonder your people are so extreme. Your students starve in public schools because you segregate the poor from the wealthy? But those who try to make a better education for their children, you punish? Shame on you California. The fault that runs amidst you is YOUR OWN and although I don't agree with the Israili PM, your state quakes on its own because you cannot make up your own mind on what you want to do.
Punish those who want to do the right thing - thats right. This action won't be upheld. The Supreme Court will do its justice. But SHAME ON YOU for harming those children whose parents CARE to provide a decent education with diversity and enrichment or religion or whatever works for their family so they can be a FAMILY and EDUCATE THEIR BABIES and not live off the damn government while your freaking state could CARE LESS about the KIDS IN THE SYSTEM! TRAITOR STATE.
{stepping down}
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My oldest son had his three children in a Christian school until the oldest reached high school age and she was put in a public school. That lasted for about a month. He then began to home school all three of his children.
All of them were in a Jr. College at the age of 15. All but the youngest went on to a state college. The youngest is in a culinary arts program at a Jr. College to become a chef.
Home schooled kids do not have to be looked on as not getting a good education. The three were also in sports programs and always involved in church activities to make sure that they could function socially as well.
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The public elementary school system failed my learning disabled child. I pulled him out and homeschooled him and never looked back. He finished the last two grades in a Catholic high school and graduated last year.
I used a curriculum specifically designed for homeschoolers even though the same elementary school system that failed him tried to get me to use THEIR curriculum and tried to SUPERVISE my homeschooling. My lawyer put both of those issue to rest for them. They left me alone after that.
Homeschooling may not be appropriate for everyone, likewise the public school system may not be appropriate for everyone. I agree with most of what has been said above on this thread. KB you go girl! I also agree with AX(artoxodisse).
When a criminal commits a crime we do not lock up or punish their spouse or children especially if the child was the victim. Unless the act of homeschooling was linked beyond the shadow of a doubt to the alleged physical abuse of the oldest child, this court is out of line and I hope and expect the supreme court to correct that problem.
You just do not punish an entire family just because a father was 'allegedly' physically abusive to one child, just because the family happened to be homeschoolers you now want to regulate who and how homeschooling is done! What if they were in the public school system and this happened? Would they have then removed the kids from the public school? I doubt it, hell would freeze over first.
Bottom line the government and the courts need to stay out of homeschoolers lives and deal with any allegations of abuse just like they would any other such cases involving nonhomeschoolers.
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You women are certainly inspiring me. Thank you all of you. I have been struggling with the decision of public vs. homeschooling. I am still trying to decide but this really does help.
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@ Samantha A. Torrence
You women are certainly inspiring me. Thank you all of you. I have been struggling with the decision of public vs. homeschooling. I am still trying to decide but this really does help.
SAM if you have any questions about it contact me via personal message. I homeschooled for 7 years and while it's not easy it was quite rewarding. -
Good idea--if for no reason other than to screen out the rightwingcrazies who want to turn their children into little NAZIs...
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@ MEA
Good idea--if for no reason other than to screen out the rightwingcrazies who want to turn their children into little NAZIs...
Why of couse lets do away with all those who are seen as rightwingcrazies as they need to be silenced.
Lets brainwash their children.
Lets outlaw the "rightwingcrazies" from teaching THEIR children as they see fit.
Possibly throw them in jail for teaching THEIR children the things the leftwingcrazies don't agree with.
Great idea!!! -
@ Sue D.
EXACTLY. If parents want to do THAT job, they should have some level of education and show they are capable. As I have said, I have interviewed grown men and women that could not write, spell or add, therefore, if THEY chose to teach their children, guess what?
Their children would be just as idiotic.
Nothing wrong with teaching your own children and nothing wrong with taking a simple test showing your are capable of doing so either.
Bottom line, the law as stated by the judge, says they have to be taught by someone credentialed, so parents NOT credentialed are breaking the law.
Change the law or abide by it.
Show they are capable according to who? Why does the state get decided whether someone is capable? The homeschooler is accountable to their child, no one else. The teacher is accountable to all the children and their parents. Homeschooling is not a profession. No one pays you to homeschool. There is no job interview. -
@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
Why of couse lets do away with all those who are seen as rightwingcrazies as they need to be silenced.
Lets brainwash their children.
Lets outlaw the "rightwingcrazies" from teaching THEIR children as they see fit.
Possibly throw them in jail for teaching THEIR children the things the leftwingcrazies don't agree with.
Great idea!!!
Picasso, it is leftwing loons. =) lol -
@ Samantha A. Torrence
Picasso, it is leftwingloons. =) lol
I'm more of a breast man myself. I don't like the wings. -
@ Samantha A. Torrence
Picasso, it is leftwingloons. =) lol
Thank-you for the correction!! :-) -
@ atroxodisse
I'm more of a breast man myself. I don't like the wings.
I dunno, while breasts can be quite healthy wings are only 3.99 for a dozen on wed. at Up A Creek ( where the woman in Ohio go tazed). I think that is what my friend said. -
@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
Thank-you for the correction!! :-)
No Problem, whether crazy or loonie, some peoples gots problems. -
Great article and thread.
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@ atroxodisse
Show they are capable according to who? Why does the state get decided whether someone is capable? The homeschooler is accountable to their child, no one else. The teacher is accountable to all the children and their parents. Homeschooling is not a profession. No one pays you to homeschool. There is no job interview.
Unless those children plan on being on welfare for the rest of their lives, they WILL have to participate in job interviews and the question will be, will they be capable of reading and writing to fill out that application?
See, I happen to think that home schooling is the way to go... children won't be in schools where gunmen try to kill them randomly, gangs cannot get ahold of the children if the parents are teaching them, and it is proven that one on one tutoring is more effective than 30 children classrooms where kids do not get individual attention, there is a whole variety of reasons I believe home schooling is the way to go for parents and children.
But I am capable of admitting that not ALL parents are capable of teaching and I see nothing wrong with having to credential those that are capable, even if the tests are simply easy math, spelling and reading....
I believe it should be a separate set of tests for parents than for teachers, thereby two sets of credentialing, one for parents that is limited in scope and FREE to the parents and another set of credentialing for teachers that earn their living teaching other peoples students.
This way it can be offered to parents for free without stepping on the toes of those that have to pay for their credentials. -
@ Helena Handbasket
Great article and thread.
Thanks Helena! -
@ Cynthia T. [Picasso]
Why of couse lets do away with all those who are seen as rightwingcrazies as they need to be silenced.
Lets brainwash their children.
Lets outlaw the "rightwingcrazies" from teaching THEIR children as they see fit.
Possibly throw them in jail for teaching THEIR children the things the leftwingcrazies don't agree with.
Great idea!!!
LOL Picasso. now that sarcasm I caught... see, I am getting to know you better! -
@ Samantha A. Torrence
I dunno, while breasts can be quite healthy wings are only 3.99 for a dozen on wed. at Up A Creek ( where the woman in Ohio go tazed). I think that is what my friend said.
I SO love this place. The only place I know where we can go from education to titties in 60 seconds flat.
GOOOOOO DJ!!!!!! -
@ Sue D.
LOL Picasso. now that sarcasm I caught... see, I am getting to know you better!
LOL. Good Susan.
It really ticks me off when people think they can tell parents what they can or cannot teach their own children.
I have/had the RIGHT to teach my own children how I saw what is RIGHT and it wasn't anybodies business.
The only time it should be someone else's business if I was teaching them to be criminals. -
@ Sue D.
I SO love this place. The only place I know where we can go from education to titties in 60 seconds flat.
GOOOOOO DJ!!!!!!
Well eventually the pervert in all of us comes out. -
@ Sue D.
Unless those children plan on being on welfare for the rest of their lives, they WILL have to participate in job interviews and the question will be, will they be capable of reading and writing to fill out that application?
See, I happen to think that home schooling is the way to go... children won't be in schools where gunmen try to kill them randomly, gangs cannot get ahold of the children if the parents are teaching them, and it is proven that one on one tutoring is more effective than 30 children classrooms where kids do not get individual attention, there is a whole variety of reasons I believe home schooling is the way to go for parents and children.
But I am capable of admitting that not ALL parents are capable of teaching and I see nothing wrong with having to credential those that are capable, even if the tests are simply easy math, spelling and reading....
I believe it should be a separate set of tests for parents than for teachers, thereby two sets of credentialing, one for parents that is limited in scope and FREE to the parents and another set of credentialing for teachers that earn their living teaching other peoples students.
This way it can be offered to parents for free without stepping on the toes of those that have to pay for their credentials.
I am fully cognoscente of the fact that there are plenty of idiots out there who won't be able to teach their kids properly. I'm willing to accept that because I understand that in order for us to live in a free society we have to deal with idiots. The end result of bureaucracy is less freedom and more bureaucracy. The end result of freedom is enlightenment. -
I believe there is a middle ground to which children won't suffer.
We step in when a child is abused, rightfully so....although some claim that it is "my child I can abuse them if I want".
We step in when people are cruel to animals even though some say "it is my animal I can do what I want".
We step in anytime a child is harmed, or abused, mentally, physically or emotionally because if it harms a child, the child's rights definitely trump the rights of the parents to inflict that harm.
I don't see this as any different... IF a parent is not teaching the child, IF a parent is harming the child's chances of getting anywhere other than welfare in life... who speaks for that child?
Who stands up for that child?
Who helps that child if it is the parents are doing them harm?
Some of the smartest children have been homeschooled, because the parents were more than capable of teaching them.
Some of the most uneducated have also been homeschooled because a parent didn't know how to teach or simply didn't care to teach them.
Like everything else, I think there needs to be a middle ground and the CHILD's rights should definitely trump the parents.
The child's right to an education.
Parents that are capable would have no problem getting the basic credentialing to be a "tutor" but the process would weed out those that are not capable, thereby, protecting the right of the child.
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@ Sue D.
I believe there is a middle ground to which children won't suffer.
We step in when a child is abused, rightfully so....although some claim that it is "my child I can abuse them if I want".
We step in when people are cruel to animals even though some say "it is my animal I can do what I want".
We step in anytime a child is harmed, or abused, mentally, physically or emotionally because if it harms a child, the child's rights definitely trump the rights of the parents to inflict that harm.
I don't see this as any different... IF a parent is not teaching the child, IF a parent is harming the child's chances of getting anywhere other than welfare in life... who speaks for that child?
Who stands up for that child?
Who helps that child if it is the parents are doing them harm?
Some of the smartest children have been homeschooled, because the parents were more than capable of teaching them.
Some of the most uneducated have also been homeschooled because a parent didn't know how to teach or simply didn't care to teach them.
Like everything else, I think there needs to be a middle ground and the CHILD's rights should definitely trump the parents.
The child's right to an education.
Parents that are capable would have no problem getting the basic credentialing to be a "tutor" but the process would weed out those that are not capable, thereby, protecting the right of the child.
I agree that the child's rights should outweigh any of the parent if the parent is failing. You're calling for a preemptive strike. I don't agree with that. We protect the child when it is called to our attention that the child is in someway being neglected, we don't test every parent when their child is born to make sure they won't abuse them. This is a nanny state form of government where everyone needs to seek approval before they do anything. Besides being intrusive it's ineffective. The violators simply won't apply for approval and won't ever get caught because it isn't enforced. -
@ atroxodisse
I agree that the child's rights should outweigh any of the parent if the parent is failing. You're calling for a preemptive strike. I don't agree with that. We protect the child when it is called to our attention that the child is in someway being neglected, we don't test every parent when their child is born to make sure they won't abuse them. This is a nanny state form of government where everyone needs to seek approval before they do anything. Besides being intrusive it's ineffective. The violators simply won't apply for approval and won't ever get caught because it isn't enforced.
Who am I calling on to strike? No on e...no strike. The law already states a "tutor" or parent teaching must be credentialed.
That isn't a strike against anyone, it is simply a simple test to show capability.
I am usually on the other side of this issue, I hate the "nanny state" thinking, but I do not see a simple test as being a challenge to parental rights, I see it as a common sense move to make sure that children, in the years of their lives where they are proven to learn the most, HAVE that option. -
@ Sue D.
Who am I calling on to strike? No on e...no strike. The law already states a "tutor" or parent teaching must be credentialed.
That isn't a strike against anyone, it is simply a simple test to show capability.
I am usually on the other side of this issue, I hate the "nanny state" thinking, but I do not see a simple test as being a challenge to parental rights, I see it as a common sense move to make sure that children, in the years of their lives where they are proven to learn the most, HAVE that option.
Hehe. It was a figure of speech...
The first five years are the most important anyway...and there are no laws for making parents be good parents and teach their children. I read about a girl who was reading by 18months. Her parents are speech therapists. I plan to have mine reading by 4 years. -
@ atroxodisse
Hehe. It was a figure of speech...
The first five years are the most important anyway...and there are no laws for making parents be good parents and teach their children. I read about a girl who was reading by 18months. Her parents are speech therapists. I plan to have mine reading by 4 years.
I have no doubt you will be successful there either.
How old is your kid? Mine is 25 as of tomorrow! (God I feel old) -
@ Sue D.
I have no doubt you will be successful there either.
How old is your kid? Mine is 25 as of tomorrow! (God I feel old)
One is 15 years and the other is 9 months. I'm not much older than your kid. Haha. -
@ atroxodisse
One is 15 years and the other is 9 months. I'm not much older than your kid. Haha.
HAHA? Well then don't take this the wrong way because I use it on my kid all the time, but, for that haha comment, I say: BRAT! -
Awww Atro, congrats on the new one! =)
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@ Sue D.
HAHA? Well then don't take this the wrong way because I use it on my kid all the time, but, for that haha comment, I say: BRAT!
I'm not laughing at you...I'm laughing at the situation... -
@ Samantha A. Torrence
Awww Atro, congrats on the new one! =)
Thank you. He's quite the handful. -
@ Samantha A. Torrence
You women are certainly inspiring me. Thank you all of you. I have been struggling with the decision of public vs. homeschooling. I am still trying to decide but this really does help.
Sam-Its a wonderful choice to homeschool. Had it not been for my autie and my teen wanting to go back, i'd still be doing it. But with my youngest going into kinder this year, it was the perfect transition time.
If you HS, do what is BEST for YOU and YOUR situation. There are so many groups out their that will attempt to force expensive curriulums down your throat.
Know YOUR style of teaching and your childs style of learning. If you like to tick off boxes after you accomplish tasks, you may be one who needs a highly organized and developed program. :-) A woman I graduted recently with my black belt from our ma academy, her oldest is just finishing up her freshman year in college at a major university - homeschooled. :-) -
Susan - I would have to disagree. Having a parent take a test, even at no charge, does step on toes. It says that the state (who cannot be trusted by their own issues with the schools system) must "check" to see if mom and dad are good at TEST TAKING according to STATE TEST STANDARDS.
1. STATE STANDARDIZED TESTING? don't get me started :-)
2. Job interviewing techniques are not learned in a school setting. From my experience, most homeschoolers do so at the EARLY age and then put their children into public schools for the last 2-4 years (highschool).
IF a student takes an elective that teaches them interviewing skills, they will learn these skills. Public schools do not teach them as core curriculum anyway so that is a relative mute argument for homeschool vs public school credentialing for parents.
Community Ed or Colleges usually offer these courses and many free workshops are offered in area cities and towns that have interviewing strategies. I learned mine from the USAF and resume writing from my Community College days.
3. There are a few, a very few, homeschoolers who are unschoolers (they equate to our super extremeists apparent in any group). They do not believe in schooling and hide behind "homeschool". How do you ferret through the true homeschoolers to find these few? Just like the states do.....have parents submit documentation and proof of schooling. With a family of 5-7 kids, public school may not be an option and maybe the mom doesn't have real testable skills but she does have a great support group and a fantastic curriculum. Her children pass the exams but because the parent couldn't pass a STATE TEST, that parent must do what?
Dump her kids into a public school setting?
Pay for a private tutor?
For some who have access to a lot of money, this might be an option but for the groups I know who home school and have worked with and met with at the wednesday park HS meetings, we had no money. While the other kids were at school eating crap - we were at the river making weird science projects and talking textures and spelling our names using dirt and grouping with river stones. If that isn't teaching, I don't know what is.
I love seeing my children next others kids- makes me beam like a christmas tree. I'd be on the front door of the Supreme Court my state was foolish enough to try and do something like this, and my kids are now back in public school. Foolish mindset for California, just absolutely foolish on so many levels. They will lose. Even in an education conference with Public School Administrators today - shocked at this decision.......CA will lose over this one.
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@ atroxodisse
I'm not laughing at you...I'm laughing at the situation...
I love them when they are that young.....they still smell so baby powder fresh! Then they get teeth and bad breath! Ack. :-(
17, 14, 12, 11, 5, 4 :-) Still crazy after all these years.....oh, still crazy after all these years. -
@ Nikki W (karateblossom)
I love them when they are that young.....they still smell so baby powder fresh! Then they get teeth and bad breath! Ack. :-(
17, 14, 12, 11, 5, 4 :-) Still crazy after all these years.....oh, still crazy after all these years.
Well...he's already got 8 teeth but his breath smells ok. Probably because we don't feed him any meat and he's mostly breastfed still. -
@ atroxodisse
Well...he's already got 8 teeth but his breath smells ok. Probably because we don't feed him any meat and he's mostly breastfed still.
GOOD FOR YOU! I love breastfed babies! All mine were. :-) Even the 4 year old that we biologically surrogated I pumped for 3 months and she was fed exclusively my milk (I think that was more for me than anything...lol).
Just made my day, thanks! I love babies. Not enough that I want my 17 year old to have any anytime soon but......someday. :-) -
@ Sue D.
I have no doubt you will be successful there either.
How old is your kid? Mine is 25 as of tomorrow! (God I feel old)
Gee Susan do you want sympathy or what?
My oldest grandson will be 29 this year!!!
Now that is a call for feeling old but I refuse to feel that way. LOL
atroxodisse congratulations on your newest one. -
@ Nikki W (karateblossom)
3. There are a few, a very few, homeschoolers who are unschoolers (they equate to our super extremeists apparent in any group). They do not believe in schooling and hide behind "homeschool". How do you ferret through the true homeschoolers to find these few? Just like the states do.....have parents submit documentation and proof of schooling. With a family of 5-7 kids, public school may not be an option and maybe the mom doesn't have real testable skills but she does have a great support group and a fantastic curriculum. Her children pass the exams but because the parent couldn't pass a STATE TEST, that parent must do what?
Beg pardon? Not all unschoolers qualify for this grouping. I unschooled my boys but they still had education every second day. I taught year round with one vacation period for the month of December.
Each year the boys had bins filled with educational projects. They learned from "real" books instead of text books other than their math portions for which I used Saxon or another text.
My oldest decided that for his senior year he wanted to learn about political commentary. He read from both the right, middle and left ends of the political spectrum and then worked at a Democratic office during the last election. He discovered on his own what he believed in after through research of each group.
All children are different. They learn in different ways. I found that for the boys hands on projects worked the best. Most of the "unschoolers" I have meet have worked very hard to facilitate their children's interests into a through educational process.
And the bonus for me was learning more of this world along with them. Maybe that was our key, that they discovered that learning is a lifelong, 24/7 process. -
@ KJ (momentsintime)
Beg pardon? Not all unschoolers qualify for this grouping. I unschooled my boys but they still had education every second day. I taught year round with one vacation period for the month of December.
Each year the boys had bins filled with educational projects. They learned from "real" books instead of text books other than their math portions for which I used Saxon or another text.
My oldest decided that for his senior year he wanted to learn about political commentary. He read from both the right, middle and left ends of the political spectrum and then worked at a Democratic office during the last election. He discovered on his own what he believed in after through research of each group.
All children are different. They learn in different ways. I found that for the boys hands on projects worked the best. Most of the "unschoolers" I have meet have worked very hard to facilitate their children's interests into a through educational process.
And the bonus for me was learning more of this world along with them. Maybe that was our key, that they discovered that learning is a lifelong, 24/7 process.
my apologies moments.....I did a no no that I don't normally do and I got so wrapped up in my post, I didn't clarify completely.
Not all unschoolers. I have come into contact with TWO unchooled families who truly UNSCHOOLED their children.....they did not teach them. The children were left to their own devices and that was my ONLY experience with unschooled "homeschooled" children. I overgeneralized and apologize. :-) Two does NOT quantify all. -
Moments - I wouldn't qualify using saxon as an unschooled program. I would call that an ecclectic so maybe yours and my "definitions" are different,hence the miscommunication.
By my understanding of unschooled - they do not use a curriculum of any sorts. The children are self-guided as far as interest. If a child likes to play in the dirt then the parent encourages dirt activities and that, by def, is unschooled homeschooling. The interest may change with time - lets say a dirt player decides he enjoys the flute, the all energies are devoted to flute playing.
Ecclectic is using REAL books (like you said) or TEXT books (ie...traditional school books) or subject curriculums (Saxon Math - which I used too and loved because it worked for all my kids) or online subjects and foreign language. My tween wanted to learn sign language so during our daily library visits at the public library, he would find a corner and practice on his own sign language. He speaks sign language. My 12 memorized all presidents of the us. They learned cell structure from a DVD. Had a daily math problem from PBS to solve (in addition to Saxton) plus road trips. My brother in law has a vending business so the older two had to stock a maching at cost and tally profits over the holidays. That is ecclectic in my understanding.
Then you have the hardcore ABECA types who use only one curriculum (at a pretty penny).
So maybe our definitions or understandings are different. If you used Saxon, I would call you an ecclectic homeschooler, not an unschooler. But thats by my understanding of the term. :-)
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@ Nikki W (karateblossom)
So maybe our definitions or understandings are different. If you used Saxon, I would call you an ecclectic homeschooler, not an unschooler. But thats by my understanding of the term. :-)
I had to use text for the math portion but we did a lot of learning games without text like the pizza game for fractions. My youngest had fractions understood at 4 but didn't read on his own until 8.
Monopoly btw is a great device for teaching beginning economics. :)
And yes by your definition I was more of an ecclectic homeschooler. While I taught based on their interests I also made sure that all subjects were covered. I can't tell you how many unit studies I put together, but I will say the hardest one was when they fell in love with Pokemon cards. But the cards they had was in metrics so I used those to teach metric conversion. :) I am an evil Mum! |
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